Comments on: Jewish Identity and Jewish Peoplehood: Convergence or Divergence? http://ajcwire.org/2007/08/06/jewish-identity-and-jewish-peoplehood-convergence-or-divergence/ blog of the American Jewish Committee. Articles on Jewish life, current events, and Israel. Tue, 07 Oct 2008 08:10:39 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Muriel Goldhammer http://ajcwire.org/2007/08/06/jewish-identity-and-jewish-peoplehood-convergence-or-divergence/#comment-1908 Muriel Goldhammer Thu, 09 Aug 2007 16:26:33 +0000 http://ajcblog.org/2007/08/06/jewish-identity-and-jewish-peoplehood-convergence-or-divergence/#comment-1908 WOW! I'm an old lady remembering days gone by -- my college years at Berkeley during WW2 -- and guess what? We were asking ourselves the same questions then as now, questions that we asked in a different context as young marrieds in the aftermath of the Shoah. On the West Coast we were an assimilating community. Our Jewishness was peripheral. Jewish peoplehood was not an issue we discussed, except in the context of anti-Semitism. Palestinians (as members of the Yishuv was then known) were strange people we really didn't want to have anything to do with. Who is a Jew? What is a Jew? Do we define ourselves as member of a Jewish community? Many of us said "no," and became almost completely absorbed into whatever facet of American life held out the greataest appeal, career, politics,culture and more. Still events exerted a pull. Even those we had completely lost to intermarriage and conversion felt a need to contribute to the United Jewish Appeal. I think it's great that there are several magazines devoted to the concerns of young Jews even though I would probably disagree vehemently with much of the content. It is an indication that a new generation is struggling with its identity. The wild success of Birthright, snd the increasing attendance at Young Judaea Year Programs in Israel indicate that there is a longing for Jewish identity among many young people. The graduates of these programs are potential leaders. The best thing that Jewish institutions csn do is to stop dithering and to help graduates of these programs reach out to those who are questioning their allegience to Jewishness. WOW! I’m an old lady remembering days gone by — my college years at Berkeley during WW2 — and guess what? We were asking ourselves the same questions then as now, questions that we asked in a different context as young marrieds in the aftermath of the Shoah.

On the West Coast we were an assimilating community. Our Jewishness was peripheral. Jewish peoplehood was not an issue we discussed, except in the context of anti-Semitism. Palestinians (as members of the Yishuv was then known) were strange people we really didn’t want to have anything to do with.

Who is a Jew? What is a Jew? Do we define ourselves as member of a Jewish community? Many of us said “no,” and became almost completely absorbed into whatever facet of American life held out the greataest appeal, career, politics,culture and more. Still events exerted a pull. Even those we had completely lost to intermarriage and conversion felt a need to contribute to the United Jewish Appeal.

I think it’s great that there are several magazines devoted to the concerns of young Jews even though I would probably disagree vehemently with much of the content. It is an indication that a new generation is struggling with its identity. The wild success of Birthright, snd the increasing attendance at Young Judaea Year Programs in Israel indicate that there is a longing for Jewish identity among many young people. The graduates of these programs are potential leaders. The best thing that Jewish institutions csn do is to stop dithering and to help graduates of these programs reach out to those who are questioning their allegience to Jewishness.

]]> By: Irwin Tyler http://ajcwire.org/2007/08/06/jewish-identity-and-jewish-peoplehood-convergence-or-divergence/#comment-1909 Irwin Tyler Thu, 09 Aug 2007 09:57:53 +0000 http://ajcblog.org/2007/08/06/jewish-identity-and-jewish-peoplehood-convergence-or-divergence/#comment-1909 From Day One, Judaism was not an organization that one chooses to join or not, as whim has it. This identifies the flaw in Ultra-Liberal, Universalist Jewish thought. Judaism never was a club to ignore or to join, following all or some or none of its rules and elements of its culture as one chooses, etc. People join clubs often with unrealistic expectations and then leave for all sorts of reasons related to how good/happy/satisfied it no longer makes them feel. For these people rituals are not enough. Feeling accepted is necessary but it does not provide a long-term hold. Education and detailed knowledge is not a permanent hook. Isreal, for these Jews, often is a tenuous hold at best. The holocaust is irrelevant for many. So, what is missing? Judaism begins, first and foremost with a recognition that G-d exists and that there is a literal World to Come which brings rewards and in which we will have to answer to Him for our transgressions of His Laws. It is a way of life whose rules He gave us in the written and oral Torah, and Torah Judaism is accepted by the adherent as whole truth - because in living that truth one believes he/she is living life honestly. Without this understanding Judaism is only seen as a club, a club little understood and, therefore, assumed to be less and less relevant with each passing generation. Those who think this way should admit to themselves that they are opting for an experience and club which is NOT Judaism, which should therefore go by some other name. OR, they should do some in-depth exploration and learn what Judaism really is. From Day One, Judaism was not an organization that one chooses to join or not, as whim has it. This identifies the flaw in Ultra-Liberal, Universalist Jewish thought.

Judaism never was a club to ignore or to join, following all or some or none of its rules and elements of its culture as one chooses, etc. People join clubs often with unrealistic expectations and then leave for all sorts of reasons related to how good/happy/satisfied it no longer makes them feel. For these people rituals are not enough. Feeling accepted is necessary but it does not provide a long-term hold. Education and detailed knowledge is not a permanent hook. Isreal, for these Jews, often is a tenuous hold at best. The holocaust is irrelevant for many. So, what is missing?

Judaism begins, first and foremost with a recognition that G-d exists and that there is a literal World to Come which brings rewards and in which we will have to answer to Him for our transgressions of His Laws. It is a way of life whose rules He gave us in the written and oral Torah, and Torah Judaism is accepted by the adherent as whole truth - because in living that truth one believes he/she is living life honestly.

Without this understanding Judaism is only seen as a club, a club little understood and, therefore, assumed to be less and less relevant with each passing generation.

Those who think this way should admit to themselves that they are opting for an experience and club which is NOT Judaism, which should therefore go by some other name. OR, they should do some in-depth exploration and learn what Judaism really is.

]]> By: hana blume http://ajcwire.org/2007/08/06/jewish-identity-and-jewish-peoplehood-convergence-or-divergence/#comment-1907 hana blume Wed, 08 Aug 2007 22:53:01 +0000 http://ajcblog.org/2007/08/06/jewish-identity-and-jewish-peoplehood-convergence-or-divergence/#comment-1907 I wonder what Joey K imagines that a Jewish community could be - or how it even could exist devoid of its historic sense of peoplehood. And, while it's laudable that he defended Jews while abroad, he might look closer to home on the campuses where one would be hard put to find Jewish students - much less non-Jewish ones - rising to Israel's defense in the academia that largely treats it as a pariah nation...As for the organized American Jewish community's response - I wish I could be as sanguine as Stephen Bayme: I see a Hadassah that tries to make itself relevant by largely eschewing "too-Jewish" issues in favor of a more politically correct agenda concentrating on abortion "rights", spousal abuse, and the like; federations still like to maintain the fiction of interfaith relations even as the non-Jewish part fails ever to speak on behalf of Israel and Jews; and congregations - for all their talk of outreach - ignore their prime opportunity for outreach, the High Holy Days, by selling expensive "tickets" to those who might use those awesome days as their entry-level into Jewish life. The organized Jewish world that I see may view trends with alarm but are too unwilling to view themselves as critically as might be necessary for them to make the drastic and painful changes that events might require. I wonder what Joey K imagines that a Jewish community could be - or how it even could exist devoid of its historic sense of peoplehood. And, while it’s laudable that he defended Jews while abroad, he might look closer to home on the campuses where one would be hard put to find Jewish students - much less non-Jewish ones - rising to Israel’s defense in the academia that largely treats it as a pariah nation…As for the organized American Jewish community’s response - I wish I could be as sanguine as Stephen Bayme: I see a Hadassah that tries to make itself relevant by largely eschewing “too-Jewish” issues in favor of a more politically correct agenda concentrating on abortion “rights”, spousal abuse, and the like; federations still like to maintain the fiction of interfaith relations even as the non-Jewish part fails ever to speak on behalf of Israel and Jews; and congregations - for all their talk of outreach - ignore their prime opportunity for outreach, the High Holy Days, by selling expensive “tickets” to those who might use those awesome days as their entry-level into Jewish life. The organized Jewish world that I see may view trends with alarm but are too unwilling to view themselves as critically as might be necessary for them to make the drastic and painful changes that events might require.

]]> By: Joey K http://ajcwire.org/2007/08/06/jewish-identity-and-jewish-peoplehood-convergence-or-divergence/#comment-1906 Joey K Tue, 07 Aug 2007 17:23:13 +0000 http://ajcblog.org/2007/08/06/jewish-identity-and-jewish-peoplehood-convergence-or-divergence/#comment-1906 Good post, good summary of the positions. One thing: you say, "So much for communal concerns about Hamas, Hezbollah, to say nothing of Iran. Whatever our worries about these groups, we are told that Jewish peoplehood is irrelevant..." Many people who read the dialogue interpreted my argument against peoplehood as an argument against any form of community or communal responsibility whatsoever. But as I said in my second e-mail to Dr. Wertheimer, I spent much time "in Europe defending Israel against the absurd insults and ignorant mischaracterizations of the European left; I defended Zionism, too, as nothing akin to the defamatory caricature so many in Europe prefer to imagine." Group loyalties and interests can exist outside of these onerous and (for many of us, simply inaccurate) claims to "peoplehood." Communities can be based on all sorts of thing: shared philosophies, shared backgrounds, shared interests, et cetera. We may have loyalties to those communities, and incur responsibilities by virtue of our membership in them. Jewish community after peoplehood would be different, not dead. Anyway, like I said, good post. Take care, Joey K Good post, good summary of the positions. One thing: you say, “So much for communal concerns about Hamas, Hezbollah, to say nothing of Iran. Whatever our worries about these groups, we are told that Jewish peoplehood is irrelevant…”

Many people who read the dialogue interpreted my argument against peoplehood as an argument against any form of community or communal responsibility whatsoever. But as I said in my second e-mail to Dr. Wertheimer, I spent much time “in Europe defending Israel against the absurd insults and ignorant mischaracterizations of the European left; I defended Zionism, too, as nothing akin to the defamatory caricature so many in Europe prefer to imagine.”

Group loyalties and interests can exist outside of these onerous and (for many of us, simply inaccurate) claims to “peoplehood.” Communities can be based on all sorts of thing: shared philosophies, shared backgrounds, shared interests, et cetera. We may have loyalties to those communities, and incur responsibilities by virtue of our membership in them. Jewish community after peoplehood would be different, not dead.

Anyway, like I said, good post. Take care,

Joey K

]]> By: Helen fk Bennett http://ajcwire.org/2007/08/06/jewish-identity-and-jewish-peoplehood-convergence-or-divergence/#comment-1905 Helen fk Bennett Mon, 06 Aug 2007 19:36:35 +0000 http://ajcblog.org/2007/08/06/jewish-identity-and-jewish-peoplehood-convergence-or-divergence/#comment-1905 I also believe that to concentrate on what is already there and supportive of Jews is not the direction we need. I would like you to investigate in more detail why England is becomming "more" anti semetic-expressing it behind the cloak of academia. After all, who knows more than a professor. I say any discerning thinker. Instead of always bowing and scraping to the world who couldn't "care" less about us we should take the example of a sworn enemy and also shout at the world. Accuse them of racism and whatever other slings and arrows they who hate us have been shouting through the mainstream media. Expose their lies. Discuss the motivation for these lies. I also believe that to concentrate on what is already there and supportive of Jews is not the direction we need.
I would like you to investigate in more detail why England is becomming “more” anti semetic-expressing it behind the cloak of academia. After all, who knows more than a professor. I say any discerning thinker.

Instead of always bowing and scraping to the world who couldn’t “care” less about us we should take the example of a sworn enemy and also shout at the world. Accuse them of racism and whatever other slings and arrows they who hate us have been shouting through the mainstream media. Expose their lies. Discuss the motivation for these lies.

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