Comments on: Two Failed States http://ajcwire.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/ blog of the American Jewish Committee. Articles on Jewish life, current events, and Israel. Fri, 30 Jul 2010 08:31:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Ross Vizenberg http://ajcwire.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1398 Ross Vizenberg Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:16:42 +0000 http://ajcblog.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1398 I'll bite. Here is my rebuttal to you Gene Schulman. 1. Democracy is not the end goal. Hamas was elected by people whose mind has been poisoned by its so called leaders (PA) who were bent on destruction of its neighbor. Negotiation was a way to get means and position to further its agenda of destruction of Israel. Oslo accords allowed Yasser Arafat and his inner circle to return West Bank and Gaza. White River and other negotiations gave him media clout as "the leader" of his people and white-wash his past to solidify his grip on power. But more to the point, Hitler and his Nazi party was democratically elected to power by Germans in 1933. Would you negotiate with them? Many European Jews didn't want to see evil then and don't see it now. "Why should be fear? We lived with our German neighbors for hundreds of years. They're cultured and civilized. They wouldn't do anything to us" And so they stayed. 2. Hamas had enough money to buy arms from abroad and resources to dig tunnels under Egyptian/Gazan border to smuggle those arms in Gaza. It's all about priorities my friend. Building a civil society is not in Hamas' agenda. Taking control of both Palestinian territories and then Israel is. 3. Israel pulled out Gaza completely. It does not control either Philadelphi Route or Rafah crossing. They are/were under EU/PA control. IDF made very limited incursions to stop Qassam rocket fire on Sderot. Over 2000 rockets have been fired since the Gaza withdrawal by various groups within Gaza. The day Palestinians leave their victim mentality behind is the day when they will govern themselves in peace with Israel. As for your point of view, as I said before many like you preferred not to see the evil 70 years ago. Their family went to the gas chambers. Shalom Ross I’ll bite. Here is my rebuttal to you Gene Schulman.
1. Democracy is not the end goal. Hamas was elected by people whose mind has been poisoned by its so called leaders (PA) who were bent on destruction of its neighbor. Negotiation was a way to get means and position to further its agenda of destruction of Israel. Oslo accords allowed Yasser Arafat and his inner circle to return West Bank and Gaza. White River and other negotiations gave him media clout as “the leader” of his people and white-wash his past to solidify his grip on power. But more to the point, Hitler and his Nazi party was democratically elected to power by Germans in 1933. Would you negotiate with them? Many European Jews didn’t want to see evil then and don’t see it now. “Why should be fear? We lived with our German neighbors for hundreds of years. They’re cultured and civilized. They wouldn’t do anything to us” And so they stayed.
2. Hamas had enough money to buy arms from abroad and resources to dig tunnels under Egyptian/Gazan border to smuggle those arms in Gaza. It’s all about priorities my friend. Building a civil society is not in Hamas’ agenda. Taking control of both Palestinian territories and then Israel is.
3. Israel pulled out Gaza completely. It does not control either Philadelphi Route or Rafah crossing. They are/were under EU/PA control. IDF made very limited incursions to stop Qassam rocket fire on Sderot. Over 2000 rockets have been fired since the Gaza withdrawal by various groups within Gaza.

The day Palestinians leave their victim mentality behind is the day when they will govern themselves in peace with Israel. As for your point of view, as I said before many like you preferred not to see the evil 70 years ago. Their family went to the gas chambers.

Shalom

Ross

]]> By: gene schulman http://ajcwire.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1405 gene schulman Tue, 03 Jul 2007 23:15:25 +0000 http://ajcblog.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1405 Well, I guess no one has the ammunition to refute the facts that I, and others who think like me, present. I would let everyone know that this writer is neither anti-Israel, nor anti-Semitic. He is an ethnic but secular Jew. I believe that for the most part Israelis wish for peace, but for some reason are indifferent to the sufferings of other people. Do they not remember that they were once in much the same boat that the Palestinians are in now? Why must they continue to absorb Palestinian territoies and allow the right-wing settlers to rain such terror on innocent, impoverished people? (You will say that it is the Palestinians who use terror and Israel must protect itself.) The obvious answer is that they have become like their own earlier oppressors and have a symbiotic relationship with the US imperial hegemony. And all the diaspora Jews are in denial of these facts. Walls only exacerbate the suffering and will not protect Israel. The more the Palestinians are oppressed, the more terrorism will occur. Please, tear down the wall! Give peace a chance. Shalom Well, I guess no one has the ammunition to refute the facts that I, and others who think like me, present. I would let everyone know that this writer is neither anti-Israel, nor anti-Semitic. He is an ethnic but secular Jew. I believe that for the most part Israelis wish for peace, but for some reason are indifferent to the sufferings of other people. Do they not remember that they were once in much the same boat that the Palestinians are in now? Why must they continue to absorb Palestinian territoies and allow the right-wing settlers to rain such terror on innocent, impoverished people? (You will say that it is the Palestinians who use terror and Israel must protect itself.) The obvious answer is that they have become like their own earlier oppressors and have a symbiotic relationship with the US imperial hegemony. And all the diaspora Jews are in denial of these facts. Walls only exacerbate the suffering and will not protect Israel. The more the Palestinians are oppressed, the more terrorism will occur. Please, tear down the wall! Give peace a chance.

Shalom

]]> By: gene schulman http://ajcwire.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1404 gene schulman Sun, 01 Jul 2007 20:20:41 +0000 http://ajcblog.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1404 My goodness, doesn't anyone agree with me? Oh well, I must remind myself, that as readers of AJC propaganda, the audience is probably biased. I wonder, who are the lemmings? Oh yes, Golda Meir also said that Palestine and Palestinians don't exist. And David Ben Gurion said; it is no wonder the Palestinians hate us so, they have lived here for over three thousand years. We have come here and stolen their land! My goodness, doesn’t anyone agree with me? Oh well, I must remind myself, that as readers of AJC propaganda, the audience is probably biased. I wonder, who are the lemmings?

Oh yes, Golda Meir also said that Palestine and Palestinians don’t exist. And David Ben Gurion said; it is no wonder the Palestinians hate us so, they have lived here for over three thousand years. We have come here and stolen their land!

]]> By: Alan awinters http://ajcwire.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1403 Alan awinters Sat, 30 Jun 2007 17:44:31 +0000 http://ajcblog.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1403 The Arab governments are all doomed to continuing failure because they concentrate more on cursing Israel, the Jews and the Americans than they do on developing their own human resources. As Golda Meir said in these approximate words, when the Arabs love their children more than they hate the Jews, there will be peace. For someone to blame Israel or the United States for the decadent conditions of the Palestinian Arab or any other Arab culture or state is to use tunnel vision and biased though politically correct speech. There is no independent thinking or scholarship among these politically correct lemmings. The Arab governments are all doomed to continuing failure because they concentrate more on cursing Israel, the Jews and the Americans than they do on developing their own human resources. As Golda Meir said in these approximate words, when the Arabs love their children more than they hate the Jews, there will be peace. For someone to blame Israel or the United States for the decadent conditions of the Palestinian Arab or any other Arab culture or state is to use tunnel vision and biased though politically correct speech. There is no independent thinking or scholarship among these politically correct lemmings.

]]> By: gene schulman http://ajcwire.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1402 gene schulman Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:54:18 +0000 http://ajcblog.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1402 Thank you for the opportunity to rebut. I would ask Ted Basset just what Israel has abandoned? Certainly not Gaza. They may have removed some settlements, but IDF has been making life there miserable. Hamas dis not jointly govern. They were denied that right by withholding of funds by Israel, EU, UN and US. How could Palestine build an infrastructure when Israel persistantly destroys homes, agriculture, forces them off the land to make way for new settlements, which is against international law? For Paul Zloto - Palestinians have been plagued by terrible leadership because that "leadership" has been supported by US and Israel. The first democratically elected government has been squeezed out. Now you see the results. David Levine is not worthy of reply. Anyone who bases his views on ad hominem name calling deserves no respect. Kurt Palm wishes for peace. So do I. If only Israel and US leadership would wish for it. Unfortunately, all they can propose is "war on terror." I would recommend that all of the above read David Shulman's book, "Dark Hope; Working for Peace in Israel and Palestine. Thank you for the opportunity to rebut. I would ask Ted Basset just what Israel has abandoned? Certainly not Gaza. They may have removed some settlements, but IDF has been making life there miserable. Hamas dis not jointly govern. They were denied that right by withholding of funds by Israel, EU, UN and US. How could Palestine build an infrastructure when Israel persistantly destroys homes, agriculture, forces them off the land to make way for new settlements, which is against international law?
For Paul Zloto - Palestinians have been plagued by terrible leadership because that “leadership” has been supported by US and Israel. The first democratically elected government has been squeezed out. Now you see the results.
David Levine is not worthy of reply. Anyone who bases his views on ad hominem name calling deserves no respect.
Kurt Palm wishes for peace. So do I. If only Israel and US leadership would wish for it. Unfortunately, all they can propose is “war on terror.”
I would recommend that all of the above read David Shulman’s book, “Dark Hope; Working for Peace in Israel and Palestine.

]]> By: Kurt Palm http://ajcwire.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1401 Kurt Palm Sat, 30 Jun 2007 07:20:25 +0000 http://ajcblog.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1401 So Israel is to blame when the fruits of violence which Fatah has sown return on their own head? When the seeds of a revolution, planted in the garden of hate and death begin to claim the planters? Hate and violence always feed upon themselves and can only lead to more death and destruction because there is no compassion or life in them. But the truth is not convenient. We should rather say that Israel, besieged by the climate of hate and violence planted all around it by these so-called Palestinians is at fault for desiring peace and life? So look into YOUR heart and see what YOU desire....what will you have for YOUR life and the lives of those YOU love. Israel has not been perfect, but a light still shines where compassion and love have room to grow - even in the soil of adversity. So Israel is to blame when the fruits of violence which Fatah has sown return on their own head? When the seeds of a revolution, planted in the garden of hate and death begin to claim the planters? Hate and violence always feed upon themselves and can only lead to more death and destruction because there is no compassion or life in them.
But the truth is not convenient. We should rather say that Israel, besieged by the climate of hate and violence planted all around it by these so-called Palestinians is at fault for desiring peace and life? So look into YOUR heart and see what YOU desire….what will you have for YOUR life and the lives of those YOU love. Israel has not been perfect, but a light still shines where compassion and love have room to grow - even in the soil of adversity.

]]> By: David S. Levine http://ajcwire.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1400 David S. Levine Sat, 30 Jun 2007 02:14:44 +0000 http://ajcblog.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1400 With scum such as Gene Schulamn among us we certainly have to carry many a cross--ha ha ha! From Herzl's time until now we have had Juden Rats like him--the Sulzberger family comes to mind. At any rate as the world sees the Arabs turn on each other and never missing the opportunity to miss an opportunity Israel will overcome the Schulmans and prosper into the infinite future! The truth always wins out in the end! With scum such as Gene Schulamn among us we certainly have to carry many a cross–ha ha ha! From Herzl’s time until now we have had Juden Rats like him–the Sulzberger family comes to mind. At any rate as the world sees the Arabs turn on each other and never missing the opportunity to miss an opportunity Israel will overcome the Schulmans and prosper into the infinite future! The truth always wins out in the end!

]]> By: Paul Zloto http://ajcwire.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1399 Paul Zloto Sat, 30 Jun 2007 01:20:59 +0000 http://ajcblog.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1399 The truth lies in between Palestinian failures and Isreali and U.S. inability to take advantage of their positions of strength to work towards a peace. The Palestinians have been plagued with the worst leadership in the world, the Isrealis and the present US administration have been incapable of a high level diplomacy and creativity even when opportunity knocked on their doors. Palestinians have suffered immensely and must bear the major responsiblity for their present condition, however Isreal and the U.S. must bear their share. Perhaps both sides may learn from their failures The truth lies in between Palestinian failures and Isreali and U.S. inability to take advantage of their positions of strength to work towards a peace. The Palestinians have been plagued with the worst leadership in the world, the Isrealis and the present US administration have been incapable of a high level diplomacy and creativity even when opportunity knocked on their doors. Palestinians have suffered immensely and must bear the major responsiblity for their present condition, however Isreal and the U.S. must bear their share. Perhaps both sides may learn from their failures

]]> By: Ted Basset http://ajcwire.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1396 Ted Basset Fri, 29 Jun 2007 21:59:34 +0000 http://ajcblog.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1396 There are multiple tragedies here, but to blame Israel alone for the "blowback" is unwarranted, and unproductive. Whether Israel occupies or abandons, it seems that Israel is to blame. When Hamas jointly governs, passes no legislation of any consequence, refuses to comply with established norms of responsible government, i.e. recognizing signed agreements, then it is not surprising that other nations refuse to recognize it. The Palestinians have received more international monetary aide through UN programs, largely funded by American not Arabs monies, than any other people on the planet, including millions of non-violent and needy Africans. What have they done with it? What respect has it garnered them? What progress do they have to show for all this 'guilt" money directed their way? Health care, education, infrastructure? At some point, hopefully now, the Palestinians have to come to grips with the simple reality that their leaders have failed them over and over again for generations. that they have repeatedly passed up opportunities to be a self-governing country, in 1936, 1947 and 2000. And that they themselves must accept responsibility. And that only they can do something about it. There are multiple tragedies here, but to blame Israel alone for the “blowback” is unwarranted, and unproductive. Whether Israel occupies or abandons, it seems that Israel is to blame. When Hamas jointly governs, passes no legislation of any consequence, refuses to comply with established norms of responsible government, i.e. recognizing signed agreements, then it is not surprising that other nations refuse to recognize it. The Palestinians have received more international monetary aide through UN programs, largely funded by American not Arabs monies, than any other people on the planet, including millions of non-violent and needy Africans. What have they done with it? What respect has it garnered them? What progress do they have to show for all this ‘guilt” money directed their way? Health care, education, infrastructure? At some point, hopefully now, the Palestinians have to come to grips with the simple reality that their leaders have failed them over and over again for generations. that they have repeatedly passed up opportunities to be a self-governing country, in 1936, 1947 and 2000. And that they themselves must accept responsibility. And that only they can do something about it.

]]> By: gene schulman http://ajcwire.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1397 gene schulman Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:31:42 +0000 http://ajcblog.org/2007/06/29/two-failed-states/#comment-1397 What garbage. AJC gloats over the tragedy of Palestine which is actually the "blowback" of conditions put into effect by Israel and the Bush adminstration in the US. They thought that by freezing Hamas out of power, it would benefit Israel. On the contrary, Israel will now suffer the stings of the wasp's nest it has overturned. I am afraid that instead of your prediction that these are two failed states, there will ultimately be only one state. And it won't be Jewish any more. Israel has had many opportunities to help fulfill the two state solution, but through their arrogance and racist mentality, its leaders have blown every one of them. A pox on all their heads. What garbage. AJC gloats over the tragedy of Palestine which is actually the “blowback” of conditions put into effect by Israel and the Bush adminstration in the US. They thought that by freezing Hamas out of power, it would benefit Israel. On the contrary, Israel will now suffer the stings of the wasp’s nest it has overturned. I am afraid that instead of your prediction that these are two failed states, there will ultimately be only one state. And it won’t be Jewish any more. Israel has had many opportunities to help fulfill the two state solution, but through their arrogance and racist mentality, its leaders have blown every one of them. A pox on all their heads.

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