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Ron Feldman said in April 27th, 2007 at 10:47 am

Dear Steve,
I was just teaching about both the Holocaust and Israel for an adult ed class over the last couple weeks and had the opportunity to discuss the various ways the Holocaust has been interpreted theologically.

Thanks for highlighting this odious statement as an example I can bring to class. I guess this is what some Israeli’s describe as “the Jewish Ayatollah’s.” With friends/leaders like these..,.

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Cantor Steven Puzarne said in April 27th, 2007 at 11:32 am

I’m wondering if the AJC has spoken out against such theologies when they come not from Orthodox Rabbis, but from the Christian Zionists who have been embraced by so many religious leaders throughout the Jewish community. For example, on Terri Gross’ show Fresh Air, Christian Zionist John Hagee unabashedly proclaimed that Katrina was New Orleans’ punishment for permitting a Gay Rights Parade. And Pat Robertson declared Sharon’s Stroke to be divine retribution for the Gaza Pullout. Is thing kind of vindictive, hate filled theology acceptable as long as they say the right things about Israel.

Just curious.

Cantor Steve Puzarne

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Allen A. Lang said in April 27th, 2007 at 11:39 am

Mr. Bayme says, “Personally, I have always been attracted by the model of human freedom. If human beings do indeed bear responsibility for their actions, they must be free to make choices, and that human autonomy must be absolute, including the freedom to choose the demonic. The Holocaust, in this view, represents the ultimate triumph of human freedom.” I find this statement questionable at best. We cannot have a civil society if human freedom is “absolute.” Suicide bombers are good examples of “absolute” freedom.

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Albert Sherman said in April 27th, 2007 at 11:50 am

As one of the four members of the executive administration of the University of Massachusetts Medical Campus in Worcester, I can attest to the unusual measures we take to accomodate Orthodox Jewish medical students. We are beyond merely “tolerant”; we are truly “respectful.” I am genuinely embarassed at the despicable ignorance of those cretins, some of whom having been ordained, who utter such garbage. What is equally abhorrent is that these fools actually have followers who listen to their rot and, worse than that, believe it! How sick…how sad!

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Ken Cohen said in April 27th, 2007 at 12:17 pm

Dear Steve,

Concerning your model-of-human-freedom thoughts:

In Chaim Grade’s story “My Quarrel with Hersh Rasseyner,” a post-war yeshiva scholar and his atheistic friend argue.

Paraphrasing from memory, I recall that the atheist challenges the orthodox Jew, saying, “How can you believe in God after the Holocaust?”

To which the religious one responds, “How can you believe in man after the Holocaust?”

With you, I think, I am inclined to suggest that our real challenge is to address the latter question.

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Ronald Schwartz said in April 27th, 2007 at 12:22 pm

The Israeli rabbinate is cowed by extremists here and abroad. The Chief Rabbinate includes extremists. Why is their disunity everywhere else? Why hasn’t the Mesorati movement been more successful in Israel?

Why do the ultra-Orthodox resist participation in Israeli cultural life? Why do they study Talmud, not Bible? A wag says those who are committed to “sitting and learning” are afraid of the book of “job.”

In the Book of Job, God says, “where were you when the foundations of the earth were laid?” Some questions can’t be answered except by those who claim to have the answers. The Modern Orthodox are afraid of losing whatever status they currently enjoy. Their claim to legitimacy is imperiled. Those courageous few represent a small constituency. Everyone else follows the herd.

In a democratic society, is the expectation that a minority will check, balance, and overpower a majority credible or realistic?

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Martin Haber said in April 27th, 2007 at 1:45 pm

Thanks to all those who spoke out against intolerance. I would go one step futher. If those Orthodox rabbis who instigated the removal of a Reform rabbi from that memorial service continue their nefarious activities, I, for one, would want to see them defrocked.

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zelma lavin said in April 27th, 2007 at 2:35 pm

We certainly do not need antiSemites if our own Jews refuse to recognize all branches of Judaism……certainly nbot Jews for Jesus, but Reform, Reconstructive, Conservative, and Orthodox. Funny, they accept our money and don’t ask which branch of Judaism we support.

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Steve Bayme said in April 27th, 2007 at 2:43 pm

Entering into theological speculation is a very tricky business, perhaps best expressed by the old adage, “Only fools dare enter where angels fear to tread.” My comment that I was personally attracted to the model of human freedom related to the question of moral choices. Individuals bear no moral responsibility – whether meritorious or evil – if they haven’t indeed been free to make those choices. In that respect, the Holocaust represents the free (and morally reprehensible) choice by the Nazis to commit radical evil. Of course, as Allen Lang notes, civil society will impose constraints on human choices. Yet the individual still chooses his or her own actions and bears responsibility for the consequences. That, to me remains the core vision of Judaic morality, e.g. Maimonides, although to be sure, there are those who differ.

I certainly agree with Ken Cohen that the real challenge is belief in man. Wiesel does have a counter-parallel to Grade in his Gates of the Forest. The survivor asks a rabbi, “How can you pray after all that has happened?” and the rabbi responds, “How can you not pray after all that has happened?”

Ronald Schwartz questions whether it is still realistic to expect a minority to serve as a check upon minority views. That is at the very heart of democratic pluralism. A true pluralism encourages minorities to speak out and thereby serve as a corrective to extreme views.

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Ronald Schwartz said in April 27th, 2007 at 3:07 pm

Minorities impact upon minorities. This is clear. Majorities are the problem. Fatah is a minority impacting positively upon Hamas?

The problem, as Professor Bayme knows, is that autocracies aren’t pluralistic or democratic. His trenchant comments bear repeating.

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Howard Winter said in April 27th, 2007 at 3:50 pm

The withdrawal of the invitation to a Yom Hazikaron event in Israel involving a Reform Rabbi hinges on the question of who is a rabbi which has been a controversial matter for more than a century both in Israel and in the diaspora.
Steve Bayme was on the YU faculty when I was an undergraduate there and Rav Soloveichik was the institution’s halachic decisor. Perhaps Dr. Bayme could review what the Rav’s views were on Reform/Orthodox clergy communal participation. Accurately, please.
Albert Sherman at UMass reports on the “unusual measures” taken for Orthodox Jewish medical students stating that they are more than “tolerant” but downright “respectful.”
Yet he is “embarrased” at the “despicable ignorance of these cretins.”
I think some points need to be made:
1. The focus of Mr. Sherman’s ire are not people who would be applying to his or any other medical school for that matter.
2. The unusual measures, in my exprienceinvolved some changes in when exams were given so as not to conflict with the Jewish holidays or Shabbat. This is not unique to UMass, but in fact occurs at any medical school that accepts Jews (or Seventh-Day Adventists for that matter).
3. It is probably not a good policy to provide a medical education to cretins as we have very different view of what constitutes a cretin.
4. Finally, when I was a medical student 20 years ago and a surgical resident subsequently—-I found that Gentiles tended to be more accomodating of Orthodox Jews than their non-observant and/or secular Jewish counterparts (with rare exceptions). This is particularly true of religious Gentiles. In fact any hostility to my religious observance came from secular Jews. This is not a unique experience but is corroborated by virtually all observant Jewish physicians that Ihave encountered through the years.

Conclusion—-Lack of Derech Eretz is a 2 way street.

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Eugene Kravis said in April 27th, 2007 at 11:35 pm

How can one believe in G-d after the Holocaust? Try this: Did the Master of the Universe use his chosen people and the horrible, murderous anti semitism to stop Hitler from destroying the civilized world? The most advanced thinkers (Einstein, etc.) left Europe. We got the Bomb, not Hitler\!

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Heinz Schneier said in April 28th, 2007 at 3:57 am

Dear Sir,

1) the Jewish tradition of self accusation – based upon the
religious the tradition of questioning the own behaviour ,
has proven to be one of the disasters in Jewish history:
Although it might advantageous for one’s career, to challenge one’s own achievements, this it is impossible to grasp for believers of proselytizing religions like Christianity or Islam,who consider such self accusations as confession statements.

2) Knowing what happened in the Shoa, statements like the ones of the Rabbi Eliahu are despicable to the extreme an I deplore the absence of adequate reactions and the lack of courage of modern orthodox circles to such abnormities to the extreme.

But this is definitely no justification for the missionary
activities of reformed groups among Jewish immigrants
from the former Soviet Union – who are completely unaware
of any Jewish religious traditions - within Israel and the Jewish community in Germany

One can not blame those Jews who are born into a reformed Jewish family in the US for adhering to the religious traditions in which they have been brought up. But the demographic development of the Jewish community in the US since the end of the World War is blatant proof that Reformed Judaism is today what it has been since it’s inception, namely in in-between between Judaism an baptism.

Respectfully yours
Heinz Schneier
Munich / Germany

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Muriel Goldhammer said in April 28th, 2007 at 5:02 am

Ronald Schwart asks a series of questions, among them, “Why hasn’t the Masorti movement been more successful in Israel.”

The answer seems to be, among Israel’s majority of secular Jews, “The shul we don’t go to is Orthodox.” This is true to the extent that many secular Israelis will not even extend themselves to attend a Bar or Bat Mitzvah at my Bet Knesset, Hod VeHadar, Masorti, in Kfar Sava, the town neighboring Hod VeSharon. They will attend the party but not the ceremony.

A native born Israeli friend complained to me a few days ago that there is no place for him to find a spriritual home. I had invited him to attend Hod VeHadar several times, but he says it is too far away. Why, he wants to know, do we not have more outreach programs.

Good question. But where is the money coming from?

Kfar Sava, Israel

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Dr. Joe Wagner said in April 29th, 2007 at 12:09 am

These pious rabbis, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and others who have a direct pipeline to G-D are false prophets. G-D has not spoken to them. He has spoken to me. He told me, “They are nuts.”

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Jay Scott said in April 29th, 2007 at 12:30 pm

Eugene Kravis makes a really significant point: in the 30’s, Physics was called “the Jewish Science.” The vast majority of the most important participants in the Manhattan Project were Jews who fled Europe, especially Germany and Italy, but other countries too.

But, I find these discussions so very sad for so many reasons:

1- As Kravis makes plain, there are so many factors interacting in history that it’s just stupidity and arrogance when people try to say anything terribly meaningful about “reasons” or “causes,” as if their sad excuse for intelligence is even remotely capable of comprehension. (The intelligent ones in such a discussion are easy to pick out: they’re the ones not trying to read God’s mind.)

2- As Sherman and Schwartz and Schneier (and the lack of anyone forcefully calling them on it) make plain, there is just so much tolerance of intolerance when the intolerance is directed towards “the Right,” the hypocrisy is truly pathetic. It reminds me of all the “Gun Control” advocates arrested in recent years on weapons charges.

3- They illustrate in far more detail than is healthy the opinion expressed by the Rabbi of the largest Reform temple in [the large city where I live], explaining why he was inviting an Orthodox rabbi to speak to his congregation: “they should see that Orthodox people can be “normal” and reasonable; they (his Reform flock) are so filled with self-loathing that they transfer it to the Orthodox, and demonize them, as well as themselves.” (His words; I would never state it so strongly on my own.)

Have a good time, but don’t expect this discussion to generate more light than heat.

*sigh*

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Marvin Kronenberg said in May 5th, 2007 at 5:52 am

After the Holocaust and other horrible things that have happened to innocent people, especially children, I find that I no longer believe in a devine being that intercedes in human affairs. To blame reformed Jews or other non-orthodox persons for what some orthodox Jews regard as sins that caused the Holocaust is rediculous.

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J said in June 18th, 2007 at 9:19 pm

I don’t believe that the Holocaust resulted from the creation and practice of Reform Judaism, as some people claim. Nor do I believe that it was only the Holocaust that gave rise to, or is rationale for, the need and call for a Jewish homeland (one wishes this were the only persecutory event we suffered). But for those who do believe such claims, does that suggest that we all (including the Chief Rabbi) can thank Reform Judaism for the creation of the State of Israel and for the in-gathering and aliyot of the Jewish people to Tsiyon (Zion)?

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xuafdzvrj xpbuialkv said in June 20th, 2008 at 2:08 am

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Gary Sachs said in August 28th, 2008 at 2:50 pm

Why do reform Jews reject Orthodox Jewish Teachings? How confusing for your fellow Jew. When I lost faith in everthing, Orthodox Judaism provided the answers for me. They were accurate and true. The teachings link to G-d. Does Reform Judaism make a similar claim. You cannot pull the wool over the eyes of someone who can feel true spirituality! You surely have taken Hashem’s ultimate healing tool for the Soul and twisted it. I tried everything else. Orthodox Judaism is a Spiritual Teaching. What is reform Judaism? What is it? An excuse to make choices outside of G-d’s reality and not feel bad? Do you not feel that you are creating a Chilul Hashem (ie a vacuum of G-d’s presence)? Does G-d approve of Reform Judaism? Are your leaders Spiritual? What is Reform Judaism all about? DO you believe in the Moshiach? Hashem’s ultimate dream? When exactly did G-d’s dream change according to reform Judaism? Is orthodox Judaism too hard? Hashem is infinitely tolerant of sin. It doesn’t get any easier than that. Why cant you stay on the true ladder and travel up and down it? Why create a new one. Orthodox Judaism makes sense once you get the hang of it. Why fragment it into Orthodox and Reform. There is no such thing. It is Judaism and it links to the one true G-d of this place. How can you argue with that? How?

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